Hi and welcome to the forum.

It would help if you could post your routine for a 24 hour period - milk feeds, solid meals, naps, bedtime etc so that we can look at that.

The key is having a good routine in the day, sorting out the nights and then focusing on the naps.

She is using you as a prop to sleep (feeds, cuddles at bedtime) and she needs to learn to self-settle.

To answer your questions:

1. Cut out the night feeds one at a time. Start with the one around 3am. When she wakes, use CC. If she doesn't settle then offer water after a while, but be careful this doesn't become a new prop. Get her up for the day from 6am (ie. if she is awake crying use CC until 6am if she isn't then asleep). If you are not happy with CC use pupdcd. By cutting out unnecessary milk at night she will feed better during the day.

2. CC is a good one for bedtime and night sleeping, it doesn't usually work so well for naps - pupdcd is good for these. It works fine using CC at night and pupdcd for naps so you could do this without confusing her. Don't mix both methods at one type of sleep time though.

3. Naps - I'll post again as I'll run out of space....

reply by DT-Elisabeth - 6 weeks ago

.... cont....

3. Naps - once nights are getting to being sorted, naps will improve. For now focus on the nights and if you can getting her in the cot for one nap a day. Have the other nap(s) in buggy / car etc to ensure that she gets enough sleep to cope with bedtime and night time sleep training. For a nap in the cot, watch out for sleep signs (eg eye / ear rubbing). After a few minutes, take her to her room and have a very short routine that she will associate with a nap. Put her in the cot and use pupdcd if necessary. Set yourself a "sleep window" of one hour. Use pupdcd to make up the sleep window. At first she won't go back to sleep, but with perseverance after a couple of weeks she will start to extend. Once she is sleeping for 1 hour, you can look at encouraging a longer nap at some point during the day (usually the post lunch nap). To do this extend the sleep window to 1 hour 15 minutes and when she sleeps for that if necessary extend it again to 1.5 hours.

For all of these things, consistency is the key.

Work out your plan, and post each day to tell us what you've done and what has happened. We can then provide further support.

reply by DT-Elisabeth - 6 weeks ago

Hi
Thanks for the reply. I'm going to try CC next week as we are at a wedding this weekend and the routine will be shot for the saturday anyway.

Our usual routine for 24 hours is a bit like this:
6.45 am - breastfeed
8.00am solids
10am - breastfeed
10.30am- attempt at a nap!
12 - 12.30 solids
2.30pm ish breastfeed
nap attempt sometime in the afternoon but no fixed time,
4.45pm ish solids
kicking time
6.35pm bath or massage then change, feed, book and bedtime.

however, the naps never go to plan (for example today, I started trying to get E to sleep about 9.15am as she was eye rubbing etc but she just refused to settle for an hour (PUPDCD), then I had to go out and she ended up sleeping at 11.30am for half an hour on the way back in the pram. This then pushes the second nap out of schedule and she didn't sleep again till 3.30pm again in the pram after a second time trying to settle her for an hour beforehand. It's very frustrating. I cannot imagine what is so hard or horrid in going to sleep, frankly I would currently sleep on a clothes line if I could get a few hours peace!!

reply by sleepy7695 - 6 weeks ago

You need to get the nights better before working on the naps as once she can self-settle it will be easier. When you make a start next week, post regularly and we will help you as you go.

reply by Mentor-Wendy - 6 weeks ago

Hi
Just a quick update, we tried CC last night, it worked after 40 minutes of screaming! I then dream fed at 11pm and E woke up at 6.45am. So a great night really.
We tried to get her to sleep in her cot this afternoon, she only managed 20 minutes but this was still a major step forward as she has not slept in her cot in the day before. I tried PUPDCD but the picking up and putting down just seemed to wind her up further so I just did head stroking and tummy rubbing instead which seemed to help more.
We'll see how it goes tonight with CC again.
Thanks for the advice, its really helping

reply by sleepy7695 - 6 weeks ago

That was a great start. What happened last night?

reply by DT-Jenny - 6 weeks ago

Hi
Last night was good and very, very bad. The good was that she only took 7 minutes to settle to sleep to start with, she had her dream feed and settled again fine. The bad was she woke at 2.40am, she quietened down fairly quickly but within 15 minutes was awake and screaming for 45 minutes of CC she then went off for half an hour but then was screaming for 1hr 20mins of CC - I was on to the 20 minutes gap before she resettled. She seemed to settle the instant I went in and stroked her head but the second I left the room the screaming was intensified. We were all so exhausted we then all slept till ten to 8 this morning (which is why we started this while my husband is on holiday from work as we knew it would be bad). She has had a nap in the pram this morning and we are trying to put her down in her cot this afternoon once she's had her lunch.

reply by sleepy7695 - 6 weeks ago

The first 3 nights are always the worst, so as long as you stayed consistent last night and stuck with the checks, there should be an improvement from tonight.

reply by Mentor-Wendy - 5 weeks ago

Hi
We seem to be doing better at night, we've had 2 nights now of dream feed at 11pm and sleep through till 6am, which is totally fantastic. However we really are struggling with day time naps. The first nap of the day is generally in the pram in the morning and is fine (but sometimes she doesn't seem to want to sleep till nearer 11am - is this too late for her to nap or does it not matter?).
The second nap in the cot is a bit of a disaster, she just screams, if we do PUPDCD she cries for the whole time whether or not we are holding her or she is down in the cot. The last few days we have given up and just taken her out in the pram or car to get her to sleep but this doesn't help her to learn to self settle. Any ideas how to encourage her to nap in her cot?

reply by sleepy7695 - 5 weeks ago

Naps always take longer to fall into place than the nights so it doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. The first nap of the day is often the easiest to achieve so it's a good one to work on in the cot to begin with. She might be struggling to settle partly through overtiredness as she's awake for quite a long time before that first nap. At her age, she'll be starting to get tired around 2 hours after she wakes for the day so try taking her to her cot when she shows tired signs, or by the 2 hour mark at the latest (some babies hide their tired signs very well!) & use PUPDCD for an hour to see if you can get her to go off.

She may not go off before the time's up the first few times & it's fine to resort to the car or pram at that point but daily persistence will pay off & soon she'll start to go off before the hour's up.

Once she's reliably settling within 15 mins for the first nap, you can try later naps in the cot using the same approach.

reply by Mentor-Sarah - 5 weeks ago

Thanks, we have started to try to get her down in her cot for the first nap now, how long should it take before she works out napping? Is it better to stick to the first nap of the day in the cot until she works ou napping?

Also E has started waking at 5.30am, we are doing CC till 6am when I feed her, is this the recommended approach when we do CC at nightime generally? would the early waking be linked to the limited sleep due to napping problems?

Thanks for answering my continuous questions!

reply by sleepy7695 - 5 weeks ago

It can take 7-10 days before you get a break through with the napping. The first nap of the day is usually easiest to achieve so ideally stick with that one although it's fine to do the second nap sometimes if you're out & about for the first one.

Limited daytime sleep can lead to an "overtired" baby & broken night sleep. You're handling the early waking exactly right though & you should see it start to improve as she gets better at settling for naps.

reply by Mentor-Sarah - 5 weeks ago

Hi
We're still geting nowhere with napping, it's two weeks since I started trying for a more structured napping routine in the cot and it feels like I'm not getting anywhere with it. Now E has started seeing her PUPD down (I just stoke her head at this time) as playtime, she keeps rolling over and as she can't roll back onto her back from her front I then have to turn her back over, and when I try to stoke her head she grabs my hands to try to suck my fingers, when I leave her to cry down she gets hysterical. I know whe's tired cos she's yawning and getting fretful but she just seems to see sleeping as the enemy.
She's doing a lot better at night with CC but still waking early and she's now started not settling for her Dad, she took 40 minutes last night for him but only 5 minutes the night before for me. Is this likely to be seperation anxiety kicking in? Shes 27 weeks tomorrow, is this too early for that?
Any advice / help would be gratefully received!

reply by sleepy7695 - 4 weeks ago

Sorry, just been thinking about it all a bit more and have another few questions, these are proabably obvious to most people but I seem to have developed a total lack of confidence in this now.
Would putting bab into her sleeping bag for naps help? she has one at night but I have never put her in it for naps.
Should I be leaving her in her room when she is quiet but not asleep in her cot for PUPDCD? I just sit next to the cot when she's quiet at the moment but I'm not sure if this helps or not.

reply by sleepy7695 - 4 weeks ago

We really need more information about the timing of her naps. Aim for 2.5-3 hours after she has woken from her night sleep or a previous nap. A little wind down nap routine often works well and a sleeping bag can be part of that. If she is not crying at bedtime and nap timethen you should not be in the room with her. It's unlikely that she has seperation anxiety. Do you both attempt to settle her in the same way?

reply by DT-Jenny - 4 weeks ago

Hi Jenny
At the moment I'm trying to get her to nap in her cot 2 hours after she has woken up in the morning, so this morning she woke up at 6.30am so I started trying to get her to nap at 8.30am.
At nap time I have a mini routine of put on her magic lantern, read her one of her mini books, put in cot, turn on mobile, turn off magic lantern, start with head stroking, shushing if she's crying. As I posted earlier, I've been sitting next to her cot if she's quiet / head stroking if crying during the first 20 minutes, then I leave her for 10 minutes (she's usually crying at this point and quite often she's thrashing her arms and legs, which I'm assuming is frustration) and then repeat this again to make up the hour nap window. She has only fallen asleep a very few times when trying this and never for more than about 15minutes at a time, which is beyond frustrating for me.
Today she just wouldn't sleep so I took her out in her pram, she was asleep in 10 minutes and slept for half and hour, and woke the second we got through the front door!!!
At bedtime she is being not too bad, last night she settled after 5 minutes but she did wake up after her dream feed for about 20 minutes when my husband did CC with her.
As far as I know we both are having the same approach at night but I do admit to being a bit more soft with her and will pick her up for a very quick cuddle if she's hysterical and put her down again the second she's calm again whereas I think my husband just does a few head strokes and that's it.
I'm still doing a dream feed at 11pm but she is on 3 meals a day, should I leave this as it is for now or should I be dropping it?

reply by sleepy7695 - 4 weeks ago

I would start to drop the dreamfeed now especially if it is disturbing her sleeping and keeping her up afterwards. You can either stop this straight away and see how she goes or start to reduce the time she has on the breast. Let us know how you get on, once the night times are sorted we can look at the naps.

reply by DT-emily - 3 weeks ago

I think I'll give it a go just dropping the dream feed and see how it goes. I'll let you know. Thanks

reply by sleepy7695 - 3 weeks ago

Keep us posted.

reply by DT-Jenny - 3 weeks ago

success! She slept from 7.45pm till 6.30am with no dream feed. It's only taken 27 weeks for her to sleep through!!!

just tried with nap, she has taken 45mins to settle in the cot, she's awake again now after 10 minutes sleep, so I need to solve that one now.

reply by sleepy7695 - 3 weeks ago

Great news about the sleep throughs. The naps are going to take a bit of time to solve but persistence is the key. The fact that she slept for 10 minutes is actually very positive.

reply by Mentor-Wendy - 3 weeks ago

Thanks, I'm starting a new topic under naps as I think I need to concentrate on getting naps happening now. Thanks for all the help with nighttime sleeping, it has made a massive difference.

reply by sleepy7695 - 3 weeks ago